Monday 3 March 2014

de la Ronde LETTERS - Ida Schneider to J. C. Bonenfant

From the Nipigon Historical Museum Archives

March 24, 1964

Mr. J.C. Bonenfant
Bibliothecaire
Hotel du Gouvernement
Quebec City
Canada

Dear Mr. Bonenfant,

I take the liberty to address this letter to you in regard to some historical enquiries.

Introducing myself, I like to inform you that I came to Canada in 1927, originally from Austria and Italy and - outside of the nine years residence in Montreal - I have been living in Toronto.  For the past 20 years I have been reading a great deal on Canadian History and, especially in connection with the Fur Trade in the Upper Lakes.  I came across some interesting historic material, as yet unpublished.

It concerns the life of two Fur Traders, namely, Louis Denys de la Ronde and Charles Francois Denys de la Ronde, Count of Thibaudiere.

Their grandfather was Louis Denys de la Ronde a Chevalier de Saint-Louis, who built the first vessel in Lake Superior (1733 ) and who died in Quebec City in 1741.

Their father ( one of the sons of the above named Louis was Pierre Francois Paul, born 14 juillot 1723 at l'Ile-St. Jean, died at La Collo under Abercrombie. He was married to Marguerite Susanne de Celles-Duclos in 1749 in Montreal.

Louis Denys de la Ronde, the Fur Trader, ( and son of Pierre Francois Paul ) made a Will in Montreal in 1797 in which he left his worldly possessions to an Indian wife ( common law) in the Lake Nipissing District, Ontario. He had 10 children with her and in the Will he named the 10 children.

However, Louis Denys de la Ronde must have recovered his health because in July 1800 he married in Montreal a widow, her name was Louise King and with whom he had five sons.  He died in 1808 and was buried in St. Anne de Bellevue. The five sons were:

Louis, born 1801 ( of Nipigon)
Charles-Francois ( named after the uncle) born 1803
Michel-Gaspard, born 1804
Pierre-Alexandre, born 1806
and
Joseph-Adolphe, born 1808

Louis Denys de la Ronde owed his brother Charles- Francois with whom he also dealt with in the Fur Trade, a total of  L 11,355.10, this includes a loan of  L 9031 .  A signed statement for this amount against the estate of Louis is in the Courthouse.

The said Louise King, Widow, was appointed tutor and Charles-Francois (1763-1840) the uncle, was present in Montreal to the deed.  The one son of Louis and Louise King who is of special interest in this research is Michel-Gaspard, born in 1804, who became a notary and practiced law in Avonteuil (not sure of spelling as the copy is blurry - ed). His life is described in the following two books:

a) "History of the Counties of Argenteuil, Quebec, and Prescott, Ont." ( from the earliest settlement to the present) by C. Thomas 1896, Montreal.

b) "Memories of Old St. Andrews and Historical Sketches of the Seigniory of Argenteuil" , by B. N. Wales, M.D.  copyright 1934 Watchman Press, Lachute, P.Q.

In the above two books, Michel Gaspard de Coligny Denys de la Ronde is described as a highly intelligent lawyer, well known for his witty political lampoons etc. etc.  He was a friend of Laurier.  Michel Gaspard married in 1829 and had 10 children, he died age 78 in 1896.

Charles Francois Denys de la Ronde.  He was born June 9, 1763, in what was then known as l'Assumption du Detroit ( now Sandwich, Windsor)  his father being then an officer in that Fort.  He too became a free Fur Trader in the Upper Lakes, perhaps, at first, with the North-West Company.  He also had a family of several children with an Indian woman.  However, he brought his family to Montreal, and on the 22nd of June 1818 he had his marriage and children legitimized, baptized, in OKA,  Parish of Lac des Deux Moutagnes, District Terrebonne.  He died in 1840 in Penetanguishene and his descendants  are still living and fairly numerous.

About thirty years ago a direct descendant of this family of Charles Francois came from the USA to Montreal and had a visit with Mr. Massicotte.  He told her about that lawyer de la Ronde in St. Andrews East, that he had carried on a long litigation with the Sulpician Order  in regard to some family property, but that , in the end he lost out on account of lack of proper evidence. Mr. Massicotte also said that the case was well known in Montreal and, in case the visitor was interested, his son-in-law, a lawyer, would be willing to look into the matter.

A year or two later, a member of the same family made a trip to St. Andrews East and there met Eva de la Ronde, then about 70 years old and daughter of the late notary Michel-Gaspard.  She too confirmed the above story.

A month ago I came across in the Toronto Reference Library three booklets with the following titles:

A) Report, relating to the Affairs of the OKA Indians, made to the Superintendent General of Indian Affairs by Rev. William Scott,  Ottawa, 22 Jan. 1883, printed by MacLean, Roger & Co.

B) A Contribution to a proper understanding of the OKA question and a help to its equitable settlement by BETA, Montreal 1879

C) An historical notice on the difficulties arisen between the Seigneurs of Saint Sulpice and certain Indians of OKA , Montreal.

The interesting part in these 3 booklets is that it mentions that third and fourth influential parties were using the simple Indians in this litigation.  However, no name is quoted who these parties were?

My question now is : Does the above refer to Gaspard de Coligny Denys de la Ronde, it looks as if this is the same case?

It seems, as if Charles Francois Denys de la Ronde also enters in this picture, because he left POWER OF ATTORNEY  to the Hon. Michel Chartier de Lotbiniere on August 13th , 1808 before Notary Public in Montreal. With this document Charles Francois claims his rights of succession to the Denys estate.

My question is

a) Where can I read about this succession and

b) Exactly, what was the case Gaspard de Coligny de la Ronde against the Sulpicians Mr. Massicotte spoke of?

A year or so ago, there appeared an article in the Daily Paper again referring to the properties the Sulpicians are holding.  Is this the same case?

It may also be of interest to you in regard to the Ontario Denys de la Ronde's that an article appeared in the Toronto Telegram of December 28, 1950, stating the case of 3 Indians in the Nipigon Region.  They were descendants of the following :

Louis Denys de la Ronde, born in St. Ann's (?).... 1803

joined the North-West Company in ...1818
Joined the Hudson's Bay Company in...1821
Served at the Nipigon Post ...1851--68

died at the Nipigon Post ... August 1868

Although there seems to be  an error in his birth year ( the above information was given from the Hudson's Bay Records in Winnipeg ) I believe the above Louis Denys de la Ronde was the son of Louise King and Louis Denys, who died in St. Anne de Bellevue in 1808. The Louis was buried at Sault Ste. Marie and in the Historical Room in the new Armories of that city there is a broken tombstone with the following inscription :

"Sacred to the memory of Louis Denys de la Ronde departed this life August 22, 1868, aged 68 years.  He was for a period of 18 years in the service of the Hon. Hudson's Bay Company and was one of their most zealous and faithful officers."

The Louis of the Sault left seven legitimate children ( he had married an Indian woman ) and appointed 3 trustees in his Will.  The half-Indian descendants showed that this estate had been turned over to the third trustee, a certain Mr. Colin Rankin in 1881, but the Half-Indians never got the money.  The article states that the Lakehead lawyer (?) in Fort William - Port Arthur investigated these claims for two years. How it ended I don't know.  These descendants had French documents.

Before I close this letter, I would like to state that I have been conducting this research on and off as a hobby, I have no personal financial gains from it, I was simply fascinated by the story, peopled with French Nobility, Fur Traders, Indians, Sulpicians and a host of descendants. The history of the Denys de la Ronde family has never been written, some of the descendants went even far into Western Canada with exploratory expeditions.

Prof. Clayton Gray, who teaches history at the George Williams College in Montreal, read some of the material I have gathered.  He thinks I have enough for a most interesting book on never before published Canadiana.  This should really be written by a French -Canadian, perhaps under a Canadian Council Grant!!

If you would be kind enough to answer my question contained in this letter, please wrsite in the French Language which I read very well but cannot claim the same for my own French writing.  Italian and German were my own bilingual languages and I have retained them to the full. Please excuse that my letter is in English.

Hoping to hear from you, I remain

Sincerely yours (Mrs) Ida Schneider.


27 comments:

  1. My father, Paul W. Deschamps, was the great-grandson of Louis Denys Delaronde through his daughter Mrs. Pierre Deschamps (nee Louise Delaronde).
    Sincerely,
    Gilbert Deschamps (Barrister & Solicitor)

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    1. Hello Gilbert,
      Thanks for family input! Have been researching family for
      over 25 years... have you seen or acquired a copy of the two
      paintings of Louise by Artist Armstrong? If not, will send to you
      if you wish

      Regards,

      Robert M P La Ronde

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    2. Robert, I am also a relative and would love to receive these paintings. If you would, please do send them to me at : ecologic101@gmail.com Kindest regards, Monique

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  2. My father Arthur Rice born 1910 in Kahnawake Que is the grt grandson of Paul Nioherasa @Marie Konaties My dads grandmother was Charlotte Agathe Kanokwashon DeLaRonde b 1844 Charlotte had one child my grandmother Mary Anne Karonhiaronkwas DeLaRonde Stuart Rice born 1875 in Kahnawake she was a Illegitimate child Judy Rice

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  3. Louis Deneys Delaronde, was my 5th great grandfather.From my history I have his birth at (1750-1818) his death.His native wife was Marie Madeline Na Wonsnneswesweguggo. Louis mother was listed as Suzanne Duclos .As listed above he did have 5 sons with Marie Anne King, however, also had children with
    Marie Madeline.One of those children Touissaint De Laronde, married his cousin Marie Kekijicakoe, they are my 4th great grandparents. It sure is an amazing history.

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    1. Dear Anne, I am Edith (Ida) grand-daughter. I believe we are closely related. Please do contact me at ecologic101@gmail.com as I would really like to talk to you. Kind regards, Monique

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  4. Penny Green

    Hi I have to admit I am a bit confused at making my connections. My mother is a descendant of Charles Francois Denys-De-LaRonde son of Marguerite-Suzanne de Celles Duclos and Louis Denis Denys de la Ronde who married Pewadjiwonokwe dite Madeleine and my father is a descendent of his brother Louis (Eustache) (Adithomoga) Denys De LaRonde married to Na8tjikijkikwe dite Marie-Madeleine Wosneswesquigigo. Kind of embarrassing to admit, but true. I think we are talking about the same family.

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  5. That is interesting Penny Green, Louis and Marie's rehabilitation marriage document does say they are first cousins. Did you have your dna done? I have been trying to figure out an extended families genealogy and dna as it relates to this family.

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  6. Daughter of Mary Lou LaRonde just wondering

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  7. it is hard to keep the de la Ronde family straight. What I meant to say above was that Toussaint and Marie's marriage says they are first cousins. Penny Green, you mention many Louis' and it is difficult to keep it all straight.

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  8. I would just like to prove the native haritage..charles and magdelene.its almost impossible.even though 1 son lived in mohawk reserve and 1 daughter barried on another mohawk reserve

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    1. Another daughter was born on the reserve

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  9. Baptism of the children, baptism of Magdelene it indicates this. I don't believe Charles has a native line though?

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  10. Hello - I see from your conversations that one is looking to prove the "native heritage" through Magdeleine Pewadjiwonokwe. Yes her baptism of 21 June 1818 and marriage of 22 June 1818 shows "aged about 40 years, an Indian born at Lac de la Che'". At this stage with the lack of documents your DNA would give you a percentage of North American Indian.
    Now the real issue to consider here has to do with Indian Affairs and the Indian Act. To help familiarize yourself on the process you would want to read the 1763 Royal Proclamation, the 1842 Bagot Commission, 1857 Gradual Civilization Act, 1859 Civilization and Enfranchisement Act, 1867 Canada Confederation and 1876 The Indian Act (all available on line through Google). There are a number of important acts past these dates, but this will give you information about WHO THE GOVERNMENT CONSIDERS AN INDIAN.
    A person could show through documents, or DNA that they had Indian heritage, however the Government has decided who they feel is qualified to be recognized by them. Besides having Indian blood/heritage, to be recognized by the Government (Indian Affairs) your ancestor must be signatory to a Canadian treaty. They must be Canadian Indian, and as of the latest 2019 S3 amendment to the Indian Act under Gender Equity they must be within 4 generations. Now for Metis status, by a government recognized Metis Association (there are Metis Associations out there that are not government recognized) the person must be within 8 generations of their ancestor and must live in the province that they are applying to. A problem most people/Indians have who are from Quebec is that as of Confederation (1867) when Quebec became recognized it is difficult to find any Treaty that they will recognize. The problem arises due to the negotiations made between the Province of Canada prior to 1867 and then how Indians were placed under the Dominion of Canada but lived in the Province of Quebec and the Province of Ontario - both Provinces who made claim to the Crown land in each province. The government offered Indians in the US to fight for Canada in the War of 1812 and offered a place for them after the war but would not give them or their descendants annuity money because they were American Indians.
    So, first thing has anyone been able to establish where Lac de la Che (Lake Che) is? Charles and Magdeleines' first three children are shown born/baptized at Chibechkon, Lake Huron. That might be a clue.
    Has anyone read the Fur Traders Journals of the Fort in the time period closest to where Charles was stationed. As Charles died in Penetanguishene, it might be useful to read: Settlement of Penetanguishene - Micheline Marchand and have a look at the Penetanguishene Bay Purchase. The Penetanguishene Bay Purchase, registered as Crown Treaty Number Five, was signed May 22, 1798 between the Chippeway and the government of Upper Canada.
    So you can see it can be a little more complicated, and not so important as to where her children lived or were buried.
    All the best in your search. You are on an interesting journey. Aandeg - crow@tbaytel.net

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  11. I forgot to add to the message above that there is no indication that Charles has any native lineage. Also, Indian Affairs will only accept DNA results from one of their five chosen DNA companies and Ancestry/23andme/Family Tree maker etc are not on their chosen lists AND they will only accept DNA results from one generation to the next - father to son etc. Also regarding Metis status, the MNO (Metis Nation of Ontario) which is government recognized will only accept people from "recognized Historical Metis communities". There hasn't been a lot of historical work done on Ontario Metis, so it's hit and miss.
    Aandeg

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  12. Hi marie kekijicakoe is my fathers great great great grandmother im tryin to fing out everything I can

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  13. Hello - I have done a pretty intensive study on the family but unfortunately could not find and information on Marie Kekijicakoe although their might be some clues. What has been found is as follows:
    1836 Baptism - Lapasse, Quebec - 05 Aug 1836 - 3 children of Toussaint Laronde & Marie (no last name) Savages from Ille Aux Allumettes - Eustache - 5 years, Louis - 2 years 8 months, Paul, 2 months 3 days. Godfather to Eustache - Augustin Bachan (Beachamp), Godfather to Louis Jacques Desnoyers, Godfather to Paul - Francois Leclerc & Monique Neveux
    1838 Church Marriage - 28 Aug 1838, Diocese of Pembroke, Ontario L'Ile Aux Alluettes Witnesses: Dominique Patwe and Joseph Pakwatchinini - Rehabilitation marriage. mentions that Marie bore a total of 14 children however in the baptism below there are 13 children. The couple was granted permission for a Catholic marriage accepted by way of a letter singed by the Montseigeur Jean Lartique of Montreal dated May 28, 1838. Also in the church entry Toussaint is shown as a farmer by trade and that his wife Marie is "Cousin germaine" to him. (First Cousin).
    1838 Baptism - Ile Aux Allumettes - Aug 28 1838 - Rehabilitation of the marriage of Toussaint Laronde age 55 years and Marie Laronde, his cousin 45 years old -Marriage Annulled - Baptism of Angelique - 25 years, Denis 23 years, Marie - 22 years, Toussaint - 19 years, Euphrosine - 17 years, Anne - 15 years, Francois - 13 years 6 months, Elisabeth - 11 years (Godmother: Catherine Tawabik), Charles - 9 years 6 months, Eustache - 8 years, Louis - 7 years, Paul - 3 years, Suzane - 4 months. Witnesses: Dominique Patwe and Joseph Pakwatchini.

    So the clues come with him getting permission to marry his first cousin. From what I can understand the De before the name had to do with notoriety but even the French Canadians didn't think that Indians should have notoriety so you will see often the children of a De Laronde as just Laronde. So you might want to look down Touisaint's cousin's to find your Marie Kekijicakoe.
    Good luck.

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  14. Marie Kekijicakoe was the sister of Chief Shaobgesic according to the DIAND report on annuities (Indian Affairs, RG10, Vol 2832 Filwe 170,073-2). This was from the research on Tousaint Antoine Laronde done for Algonquin Metis). Tousaint's mother was her aunt thus explaining the marriage dispensation.

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  15. Josepthe Kekjicakoe was the spouse of Augustine Bachand (Beauchamp) resided also on Alumette Island and her descendants dna matches Shabogeesick dna. I have to wonder if Marie and Josephte were sisters. Or that Josephte was the sister of Tousaint.

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    1. One could explore the DNA connections through mtDNA if there are enough mother/daughter links to descendants of both Marie and Josephthe.

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  16. Still trying to establish the basis of that particular assertion told to me. I am trying to explore who passed on the Shabogesic name. For example Angelique Shabogesic (Daughter of Chief Shabogesic) passed the name down even though she married Norman McLeod. There are a few Shabogesic families in the 1871 census so I am looking there. I see your other comment on Josepthe so I will include that data as well in the research. I have DNA matches to a number of the families but we seem to be connected in a few ways within 4 or 5 generations or so. I thought I was only related to McLeods through an adoption/ second marriage (my grandmother's step-father) but was surprised to find a partial DNA match. The Shabogesic connection may explain it. I will try to use some DNA math to see if the percentages line up with the hypothesis.

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  17. I have already. Extensive search Josepthe matches many Laronde lines and Shabogisick too. She was pagean so only records on her are her children

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    1. I have done both dna and genealogy on this line. Do it for a living. First Nation and Metis geology and history

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    2. Thank you! This is such an engaging topic. Do you have any YDNA or MtDNA data and is there a place where one can share/ register?

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  18. Sorry. Last two replies was NK

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  19. I am a direct descendant of Michel-Gaspard from St. Andrew's East Quebec.

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